EPISODE 127: From Jesuit Priest to Taoist Teacher: A Conversation with My Ba

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  Po: Welcome to the Tao Po Podcast. I'm your host, Po-Hong Yu, aka Big Red, aka Po, aka all kinds of nicknames because Po pretty much goes with everything. I'm a mystic, a spiritual guide, a medicine woman, and a somatic energy healer. My soul's work is to guide people back to the wisdom that lives in their bodies and to heal unprocessed pain so they can have the space to cultivate their gifts and then radiate their light and their work out into the world.

  Everything I teach is based on the foundation of Taoism with an emphasis on Yin, which is feminine energy. It's the internal, the deep, the dark, the soft, the surrendered, and the receptive energy that is arising in the collective. In this podcast, you'll receive soul treats in the form of three kinds of episodes that support this time of awakening. Inner child alchemy sessions, solo transmissions from my heart, and conversations with people where we explore the full range of topics that make people human and divine. I hope you enjoy. Let's get into it.

  Hey, Ba. So I'm excited to have this conversation with you because I know that a lot of people are curious about your story and how you went from becoming a Jesuit priest to a Taoist teacher. And so I've heard this story before, but I'm excited to hear it again because who knows what other things will come out. But let's start from the beginning. I think the very beginning is you were born in 1931.

  Ba: Yeah.

  Po: Which is so crazy, except for me to say because that's almost 100 years ago. Right? Almost. Yeah. How does it feel to you knowing that it's almost 100 years ago?

  Ba: Yeah, it looks like a long time, but also it's not that long. It seems like yesterday. So really, time is something that's really, I'm amazed about. It's something very, it's a fleeting, but it's enduring. But it's, you live in it.

  So it's so important for you. So that's as far as time and my childhood is about. So it seems a long time ago. I still can remember some instances when I was a child. But most of the things I forgot, like most people.

  Po: Is there anything that you can think of? Like what instances do you remember? Any memories, like little things that you remember?

  Ba: Yeah, I just remember, always remember. I see when I was little, I don't know how about before I was 10, and this table, I want to read something on top of the table. I was trying to get it, but I was not able to. So that's the thing I always remember.

  I was reaching for something, and I didn't get it because I was not tall enough. So that's one of the things. And also in the Chinese New Year, seeing my grandpa, it allowed us, everybody, you can take a drink.

  Po: Oh, really? Alcohol? Yeah, alcohol.

  Ba: And I was very small, and I was able to take it. How much drink were you drinking? Well, of course, not a lot.

  Po: Like a sip or a whole cup?

  Ba: Yeah, maybe a small cup. I don't exactly remember how much. But as everybody was amazed and as little as I was, I was able to take the alcohol. You know, the Chinese liquor was very potent. Very strong. Yeah, very strong. It's not like beer.

  Po: And it's not even like vodka. It's stronger than even like hard alcohol in the States. Yes. Yeah, it tastes, to me, disgusting. I do not like the taste of it, but to each his own.

  Ba: So that's one of the things I remember. Rather clearly.

  Po: And then dumplings. You were telling me the other day how dumplings around New Year's too, right? Yes.

  Ba: See, for about two weeks, that's the only thing you eat because it's so cold. So you after you made the dumplings, you leave on the outside and it's frozen. Then it comes and you just bring them in and then boil it and then eat.

  Po: So the outdoors was the freezer.

  Ba: Yeah, for a couple of weeks.

  Po: Did you guys make them by hand? Yes. Yes.

  Ba: Then you don't buy dumplings. You make them yourself.

  Po: Yeah, and dumplings is your favorite food, right? Yeah. Is that why? Yeah.

  Ba: That's why you like it.

  Po: It runs in the family.

  Ba: See, I think the secret why it's tasty is because all the good things, meats, vegetables are wrapped in the dough. So the flavor will not escape from the dough. So everything is inside. So that's why it's so delicious. It's so good. That's my philosophy.

  Po: Dumpling philosophy. That's a new one. The yin and the yang of dumplings. Right? The dough is the yang and then the meat is the yin. That's so funny. Yeah, dumplings. We just had dumplings for dinner today and it's the best.

  Po: It brings back a lot of memories because we used to make them also with Yuma and I and you would roll them out because you roll the dough out by hand with this wood roller and you roll in the left hand. You're turning the dough into a circle so you're moving the dough while you're rolling it. I tried it. It is very hard.

  Ba: It's very difficult.

  Po: Yeah. I remember seeing you doing it so fast. So I remember you doing the dough and then mama would be in charge of the filling and making the dumplings and then we put it in the freezer and we'd eat them all the time.

  Make it extra sour with vinegar. Those are some of my favorite memories for sure. Okay, so you had some childhood memories. I also remember you saying like your parents or maybe your mom was more of the religious one. Is that right? Yes, that's correct.

  Ba: Yes. So she was a very forward and Christian or Catholic or what? Catholic. Yeah, Catholic is Christian. Christians can be Protestant. Yes, that's the bigger umbrella. Yeah. So my mother was very forward and she always wanted the one of her three sons to become a priest and she had that desire, that wish.

  Po: And the oldest son is supposed to do that, right? Or no?

  Ba: It's not supposed to. There's no. But actually my grandpa wanted him to be a priest. But he, you know, he just he ran away. He didn't see he was sent to the school but then he didn't want to do it. So that's that. But then see my brother didn't have the turn to make a choice. It's my turn. So when I was 18, I left China for the Philippines to join the Jesuits.

  Po: Okay, so let's before we go into the Philippines, I'm curious about what made you feel like you wanted to become a priest at that young of an age?

  Ba: See, when I was in 19, 19, that's a city? Yeah, at the state of Nanjing. See, the high schools run by Californian Jesuits. So I got to know them very well. And then I sort of admired their lifestyle, their priestly life.

  Po: What did you admire? What did you see? Yes.

  Ba: See, at that time, I was rather devout, about Catholic, so I go to Mass every day. Every day? Yeah, almost every day. What age did you start going every day? That's 18, 17, 18.

  Po: Oh, okay. So right before you decided to become a priest? Yes, yes.

  Ba: So I was sort of attracted to the priesthood. What about it though? Nothing, just the feeling, and it's nothing extraordinary because the Jesuit priests were teachers in the school, they taught English and some things. So I just sort of attracted to them.

  You only ask me why I cannot specifically tell you what anxiety is that attracted me. It's good to be like them. You felt the call. Yeah, the call. That's right. And later I enjoyed being a priest.

  Po: Okay, so before we get into that, because I want to go in order, because you are like observing these Jesuit priests and you're like, oh, I'm going to Mass every day. I'm enjoying this. First of all, that's to me so different because so young and so devout, like you said, like where do you feel like that devotion came from?

  Ba: Yeah, my mother, I think. So that's the influence. Now, looking back, I thought it was my mother. By that time, I was not aware why it was just a sort of feeling. And because I went to Mass every day, so it was very spiritual.

  Po: What did your grandmother do? I mean, not your grandmother, your mom did. What did you observe her doing in terms of her faith?

  Ba: Yeah, see, the way we went to the church every Sunday. And she says prayers and she was very good and nice lady. And she talked about religion, faith. So I observed her life and I'm so stable. So not like my father. So without knowing why, I was just attracted to the faith.

  Po: Were you close to your mom?

  Ba: Yeah, very close to my mom. Were you close to your dad? No, not too much, because he is rather aloof. He doesn't talk to us much. He's minded in his own business. So I was very close to my mother.

  Po: So, okay, you're 18 years old, you decide, okay, I want to be a priest. What happens there? What did you do next?

  Ba: Yeah, just see the... Because you were in Shenyang, right? Right now it's in Nanjing, which is near Shanghai. So I decided and then the priest told me to leave for the Philippines, because we have a seminary there. A seminary? Yeah, a seminary, where I can study for a priesthood. So that's that.

  Po: When you told your mom, what was her reaction?

  Ba: Actually, when I went home to tell my parents I chose a way. I didn't see her for the last time. So my father can tell them that. Oh, wow. So my mother, no, I didn't see her. Where was she? She was doing some kind of business on her own. So she was away, it was not in town. Wow.

  Po: And back then, obviously, it was your cell phone. I mean, how do you communicate back then? No. You just go in person to find the person.

  Ba: Yeah, no letters or anything, no phone calls. But no letters, mail or... Yeah, it's not far away. When you have to stay in place, another place, but see, I stay in school.

  We don't use letters, we just say, I go home. It's not far. Oh, so you were in a boarding school? It's sort of, it's not a boarding school, but see the priests are very nice to me and another guy. So he allowed us to stay. I don't know, it's like a dorm for some kind of, I was in school. Okay. So I was living in a school. Wow.

  Po: So you never got to say goodbye to your mom. Yeah, right. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. How was that for you?

  Ba: Yeah, sorry, because she would like to know.

  Po: I mean, she found out eventually, right?

  Ba: Of course. Yeah. My father would. But it would be nice for you to tell her. Yeah. So I never got to talk to her ever since.

  Po: Never ever since then? No.

  Ba: Well, since after many years, in 1978. Wow. So me and my kids, a whole family went to China to visit my family, whole family.

  Po: You say kids like I'm not one of your kids.

  Ba: You too. Yeah, I know. Because today you're only one of them.

  Po: Me and Guga. Right. I did not know that you didn't talk to her for that long.

  Ba: Yeah. Because I was in the Philippines, in China, there's no telephone, there's no, and not even, so we didn't have much.

  Po: Things have changed since then, in terms of technologies. Oh my goodness. Wow. We don't think about that now as somebody my age, even though I grew up without internet or cell phone, at least we had like, you know, we could call long distance on the landline, right? But back then, you don't have all that. So, right, right. Okay. So you end up leaving and going to the Philippines to study at the seminary. And how was that? Yeah.

  Ba: So the big four beginners, for two years, no study, like a apprentice, you know, to learn about rules. That's a religious order. It's not like other priests or under bishop in a place, that local priest, I belong to an older organization of priests, which is called Jesuits, the Society of Jesus. And so they have their own rules. So it's learning rules for two years, and then meditate and do a prayer and so forth. Then for two years and later, three years, we call it generate, which is your study, literature, Latin, English, Chinese. So that's sort of a... Well, you learned a lot.

  Yeah, this sort of thing for three years. Then after that, what they call, you go to a school, the Jesuit-run school, high school, to teach the kids. So for a couple years there. And then went to philosophy. You learn philosophy for three years. And then after that, theology, now, this is to study theology for four years. And at the end of the third year, you're then priest. So I become a priest then.

  I think in 19... I don't know how to try to talk about the call. Anyway, so... So how old were you around? I was... Yeah, I was 30... I think about 33. Yeah, okay. 33.

  Po: So wow, a lot of studying. Yeah, a lot of, you know, schooling in the Philippines, different things. And you got your masters, right?

  Ba: Yeah, that's later. That's for anthropology, which is after I was priest, so when I specialized in culture anthropology, that's why I went to the States to further my studies.

  Po: So just so people can understand, what is it like? What is a Jesuit priest? Like, how is that different than another type of priest?

  Ba: Yeah. The Jesuit priest is just an order in organization within a priest's within the Catholic Church. It's not a different religion. It's just an organization. Like nuns, nuns belong to their organization. So this is the organization for priests. And there are a number of them, you know, Franciscans, Dominicans, and Jesuits. So different names. They have their own rules, and they are more devoted to the church.

  So they have their own specialties. The first, the Jesuits were emphasized on knowledge, you know, teaching. So a lot of schooling Jesuits. Franciscans, like they want, for like hermits, just sort of say prayers and so forth. So different kinds of religious orders.

  So that's, so the religious order, the largest one is Jesuits, Jesuit order. So I was a priest, religious, a Jesuit priest. Well, at the end of my third year of theology. And then the fourth year of theology. And after that, there's still the last year of training, they call it tertiary. The third year of novice ship novice is because in the beginning, you learn about rules and so that's the novice, you become novice. And then the tertiary ship is the last year of training as a novice. And after that, then you start to, you either go to work or go further studies.

  Po: And you decided to leave Philippines at that time?

  Ba: Yeah, to study anthropology in the States. What school did you go to in the States? Yeah, it's in the University of Chicago.

  Po: And so you're a priest, a Jesuit priest while you're getting your master's degree. Yeah, right. And you're, are you living at a church working as a priest?

  Ba: Yes, yes, that is in Evanston, Illinois. And that's where, not as a school, was the Chicago, Chicago. And this is Northern suburb called Evanston. And there's a church there. So I said Nicholas Church. So I lived there while preaching and helped the pastor to run, well, not to run the parishes, but to say Mass, curatantations and so forth. So that they allow me to stay there while going to school. Wow.

  Po: Wow. So you were in, you were in one of those, what do they call it? Where people, parish, church?

  Po: No, where people confess their sins. Oh, yeah, confession. Yeah. Yeah. What's that? What's that called? The thing that you confessional, confessional.

  Ba: Say you said it and then now two sides. So people come and kneel down and confess their sins. Wow. You activate as a God, not to absolve them of your sins. And they give them penalties and then that's it. That's wild. Yeah. Confession.

  Po: I'm just imagining and just see the visual in my head right now that you're doing that. I've never saw that picture in my mind before because I've obviously have known you were a priest and I know that priests do that, but I never saw you in that room. Yeah.

  Ba: So everyone will say Mass and then Sunday you'll hear confession and so that's sort of thing.

  Po: Did they pay for your master's degree? How did you pay for the calling?

  Ba: Your schooling? The schooling is, see my order, the judgment order pays. Okay. So it's, so I just live for free in the church and so they give me lodging and food and so forth. I work for them, I help them out with the religious services.

  Po: And how long were you an active priest for starting at that time when you moved? Eight years. Okay. Eight years. And correct me if I'm wrong. I think you said to me at one point that you did like a road trip, like a tour around the United States called mustard seed or was something like that? A retreat.

  Ba: You see I was studying in Chicago. So during the summer, summer vacation, I drove a car around visiting the Catholic students, not Chinese Catholic students in different cities to help them with their religious life and give them retreat. What does that mean? Retreat. That means we go to a place and they stay in without talking. You give them talks and they meditate. They pray for for instance three, seven days. So that's sort of intense spiritual, it's not training spiritual practice. Practice. Yes.

  Po: So you would go from city to city to do that? Yeah.

  Ba: But I don't do it in every place. So they all come together for instance in Washington. They then have a place so that they stay there. So I just give them talks and then say mass for them and so forth. So that's what I did during the summer.

  Po: So I was it called mustard seed? Am I making that up? Retreat. I know but you told me something called mustard seed.

  Ba: A mustard seed, I did not see the magazine for the Catholic students. Yeah, that's called mustard seed.

  Po: Were you part of creating that magazine?

  Ba: Yeah, this is the internal. Well, it's not for open to the public.

  Po: Did you write in it or what did you do?

  Ba: Yeah, just write articles and then also there's students and also articles there so that for people to read and discuss.

  Po: Okay, so go back though. You met mama in Washington. Yeah.

  Ba: That was in I think in the 67 or something.

  Po: Was she at the retreat? Like where did you meet her?

  Ba: Yeah, at the yeah, the retreat. So she was one of the students. Oh, I didn't know that. Not my students. She went to school in Ohio. Kent State. Kent State. Yeah. Right.

  Po: So I didn't know that she was studying Catholicism back then. Yeah, she was a Catholic. Okay. Wow. Okay, so then you all stayed in touch. I'm guessing during your priesthood for the right? No, no, no. Just yeah.

  Ba: Yeah, but I get to know her when I was a priest. Right. Because she was in there in the group of the retreat. And later, yeah, we get to know each other and then we got married.

  Po: Well, you left the priesthood first. Yes. Yes. Why did you end up leaving?

  Ba: See, I was actually this is a long story. Even while in the Philippines, while in studying theology, I was a distribution about the church. Now why? Because see, theology is what is theology is like philosophy plus Chinese, the Bible, the teaching. So you use philosophy to explain the faith. So that the joint together is theology. So theology is nothing except philosophy plus the Catholic faith, either the Bible or the teaching, traditional teaching. Okay. My problem was they only use Western philosophy to make it theology out of it. Mm hmm. But why not Chinese philosophy? Why not Hindu? See, this is sort of superiority. Superiority. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Po: Okay, so you already started to notice this when you were in the Philippines. Yes. But then in years later,

  Ba: you that was the reason one of the reasons. And also I knew that while in China, the missionaries, foreign priests come to China to to propagate their faith. And there are people, young people who want to study for a priesthood, the whole seminar seminarist. That's under a bishop.

  But they, while they study, they live together, they have to eat Western food while in China. So this is a this is on the practical level, on the the level of thought and of ideas of theology. This is sort of the same superiority. Right.

  Po: Basically, you're saying that they're bringing, not really connecting with the culture that they're in.

  Ba: Right. They are not, they were not integrating into the culture. Right. They rather oppose their own practices, their own lifestyle on the students in China. Right. And it was, of course, in everywhere, not just in China, everywhere, the same thing. Yeah.

  So I was the solution about that. So the Catholic Church is supposed to be a church of love, because Christ gave up his life for a second love. How come the church was so as such, not thinking of the local people and their what they want and just they sort of what they want and they they're so there's they feel there's superior. So I could not take that.

  Po: Yeah. So you got to a certain point, you're just like, I'm done.

  Ba: Right. So this I carried out from theology years to the to to the America. Yeah. So there. Then so I decided to leave.

  Po: Yeah. So how did that happen? Was it dramatic?

  Ba: Doubted. You're not dramatic. The religious order, say that my my superiors are the religious in the in the Jesuit order. So so they have to allow me to do that. So I just asked them, I want to leave. And they just let me go. Okay. So easy. Because there's no point of forcing me to stay. So that's it. So I'm the that's the end of my personal.

  Po: Wow. So that's so wild. Because I'm just thinking about like, basically, your whole adult life, you're, you're studying for the being a priest, you are a priest. And now you're like, yeah, a regular quote unquote

  Ba: person, even before beginning my first, first need life. I turn away, say I stop the priest. Oh, okay. The other way.

  Po: So even before you left, you were already starting to

  Ba: know what what this is not not much time after left, I just began my secular life. Right.

  Po: So that's what I'm saying. Like, what was how was that adjustment in that transition?

  Ba: Just me just sort of looking for look at life. And so was it weird?

  Po: Like that's such a big adjustment. Yes.

  Ba: Yes. Yeah. To turn from the Catholic to non-catholic, religion to no religion, right? That's a big jump. Yeah. So I didn't, at the beginning, I had a difficult time to overcome that. Did you feel guilty? Like the sort of guilty later I found out, see, I have problem with the church. I have no problem with God. Right. So then so have no problem.

  Po: That's how you got over it. That's why. That makes sense. Right. You had to let go of the ideas and just connect to the source.

  Ba: So the associate and the church from Muka. Okay.

  Po: So you leave the church and then story has it. Mama is the one who says she wants to, I don't know how to, like, how did you guys get together? Like, how did that happen?

  Ba: She's not aggressive.

  Po: I mean, she's, I don't know, is aggressive the right word or assertive? Assertive maybe? Is she aggressive or assertive? What?

  Ba: She's not assertive. We didn't talk much, but this is sort of, she's... She knew what she wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She knew what she wanted. Then she just tried to grab it.

  Po: And she got it. It worked. How did you remember how she did that? Like, what did she do?

  Ba: I don't remember how. It is, well, just, that's the general impression. So the high was a little shy. You're very shy. Because I said, priest of life, shy away from women, but now all of a sudden she...

  Po: She said, he's free. So shy of her. She said, I'm ready. He's free now. I'm going for it.

  Po: Mama is, my mom has always been like that.

  Po: Like, she knows what she wants.

  Po: She goes for it. That's where I get it from. I love that story so much. Okay. So you end up having, you know, well, first of all, you never thought you were going to ever get married. So to me, that's like another huge transition and adjustment. You know, you go from... You thought your whole life you were never going to be married. Yes, yes.

  Ba: It's a completely total change of my lifestyle. Everything is different.

  Po: Everything. Everything. And then you end up having sex because you're married. You never thought you were going to ever have sex, right? Right. It's amazing. It's like, and I remember when I hear, remember hearing stories that you also were a mechanic at one point. Yeah.

  Ba: See, to live, to do something. So I went to a technical school to learn how to be an auto mechanic. So I did that for several years.

  Po: I love that so much.

  Ba: Also, I went to teaching in Harvard, leading Chinese for a couple years. And then after that, I was also a waiter in a restaurant in Harvard Square for some time.

  And then I became a salesperson for insurance, first life insurance and then health insurance for the self-employed. And it was doing very well. Yeah, you did. I remember. Yes, it was doing very well.

  Po: You got some awards too or something.

  Ba: Yes, yes. And got free trip to Europe because of my work.

  Po: And also, you, I have memories of going to, waking up really early and you would deliver Chinese newspapers in Chinatown, I think, right? Yes, yes, yes. And I remember it's such a potent memory for me as a child observing you because it's just so funny how memories are like certain things just stand up to you. And I remember watching you count the newspapers so that you could wrap it up and tie it up in a package so that it would go to whatever store, right? And I remember seeing how you would count the newspapers. I was fascinated by watching how you counted them, like two at a time or something like that and how fast you did it and the way you tied the ribbon. I think it was like a pink ribbon or maybe a white one. I don't remember. But I just loved observing that.

  Ba: See that part I forgot. Of course.

  Po: Yeah, it's not important to you. But okay, any other jobs that you want to share?

  Ba: Then the very last one, we run. Oh, the laundromat. The laundromat.

  Po: Okay, so this is you guys, this story. I love this because it's just so wild. So, but this is when, you know, I'm older, probably around 12 years old or something like that. My mom was like a business woman, just a natural business woman and always had new ideas. She's the one who started investing in real estate. That was her idea. Right. I think she borrowed money from friends or something to get started.

  Ba: See, after I worked as a salesperson, I did very well. That's why we were able to borrow money from a bank. Oh, okay. Then she started investing in real estate.

  Po: Right. So she started investing in like areas that were cheaper because she had a vision. I feel like she was always so intuitive about in Cambridge. Right. Because you guys, because you had Guga, my brother in Chicago, right? Yeah. Or is it Ohio? Chicago. Chicago. And then, so he was born there.

  I was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And she was very intuitive about like locations in terms of neighborhoods and what house to buy. Yes. Very smart that way.

  And mama, my mom, before she had me, she was a biochemist. Yes. Very smart woman. Yeah. Because biochemistry is like so hard.

  Chemistry in itself is so hard. But she left her job from the story I heard is that she wanted to like, you know, be home with me more. And maybe she just knew she wanted to be an entrepreneur too.

  I don't know. But she ended up buying, you guys bought this property in Cambridge that was like one floor. Half of it was a laundry mat.

  The other half was this open big studio. And at that time, you all had gotten divorced already. And she remarried to Shifu, who was my stepfather.

  He was a grandmaster of martial arts as well as a Chinese medicine doctor. And the laundry mat had a back room where you guys would hang out, right? Table, kitchen, everything.

  You could just relax there. But that kitchen living room space had a door that connected to the open space next door, which was the martial arts studio. So here you have a laundry mat right next to a martial arts studio and a door connecting it. And all three of you would hang out in that back room, that kitchen area. And Mama was kind of like just running things. And you were running the laundry mat. So you would take in the laundry drop offs. You would wash the laundry for people. I remember weighing it, picking up there, getting the dry cleaning. You were basically the day-to-day person at the laundry mat. And Mama was like just doing her thing whenever she's doing, right?

  Po: Just like all over the place. She's just like a spontaneous person.

  Po: Thank God she had you because you're okay with doing boring things every single day.

  Po: I mean, you're a priest. So like, like you're in here while you're folding laundry. It's like a spiritual practice. You figured out the best ways to fold the laundry. I remember. So for me growing up, it was really interesting

  Po: because well, first of all, you know, I had so many problems. And I was very angry and depressed and just people know my story. I've talked about that. I don't need to get into that that much. But it was interesting for me to experience all three of you together.

  And you were friends with my stepfather Shufu. Yeah. So yeah. So that was your last job was running the laundry mat. Yeah. So anything you want to say about that?

  Ba: No, not much. It's just just a routine and that's not much. But I was to see when people come to their laundry and there's always a talk to me and it's also you shouldn't be the teacher. It's just conversation. Sort of what I said, maybe I've inspired them in some way. So they made a lot of friends in the laundry mat.

  Po: Yeah. So this, but you don't know this movie, but most people do it's called The Matrix. There's a movie called The Matrix and there's a scene in the movie. It's based in New York City and there's a woman that's an oracle and she's in Harlem and she's in like a regular apartment, like just a regular New York apartment. But she's an oracle and she's smoking cigarettes and she's just like, you know, it just seems like regular. And I always like to tell people like that's what it reminds me of when I think about you at the laundry mat. You're like, you're just like holding laundry, just like this regular, you know, guy looking, you know, normal guy. But really people are still, they're attracted to you for spiritual teachings that naturally happen because I remember people would come then eventually and then you kind of like have these little meetings, right? And is that right? Like classes or something like that?

  Ba: No, not in the laundry mat, but just on a personal person basis. I don't have a group later. I've known during the, I think the 60s, the 80s, the New Age is about New Age. See that I used to go to Harvard Square, there's a bookstore, seven-star bookstore where we have there's a group of people and we come together and have our meetings. Let's talk about the spiritual things. See, that's where I came across the Tao De Jing and then the different religions and so forth. And I, where I resume my spiritual life from there. Although I may never stop my spiritual life, but there's this special emphasis on spiritual, that type of spiritual reform or spiritual new spiritual aspirations. Because the Western religion is really young people don't go for them and so they want new ideas and new inspirations. They go for India and China. So Taoism and Buddhism. So quote unquote New Age.

  Po: Yeah, that's New Age. Yeah, because I remember back because this is all new. Like now in 2024, we don't call it New Age because it's been around now for like, you know, 40 years or something. But back in the 80s, it was new, very new conversations. People didn't talk about what they talk about. You know, it was, it was completely new. And I remember you even did like study the astrology and did astrology charts. Yes. But the different kind of astrology.

  Ba: Yes, right. See my brother the spiritual one. I did for some of my customers and then some people see my own. Yeah, I was so much enthused about the astrology. So I, so that was a part of the spiritual work and the new age of that period.

  Po: Yeah, so then Taoism came into your life and you started studying that. So I'm so curious about like, like what inspired you to go deeper into Taoism? See, let's see my spiritual life never discontinued.

  Ba: Even after my personal is still the same thing only at a different way. So I go different ways, but still for, I don't use the name God, but use names. You see, there's also a spiritual being, a separate being that I never left that being. So through new age is so sort of new form of spiritual aspiration. So I went with that and then the goal deeper and deeper. So that's where I did astrology and Taoism and different things came into my life.

  Po: Yeah, and it's so interesting because what year do you feel like you started really studying Taoism more seriously?

  Ba: Yeah, just from the new age and then never stopped. So since the 80s, how many years? That's a long time. Yeah, a long time. Yeah. About 50. So ever since I never left and never dropped Taoism. It's always that become the center of my spiritual life. Yeah.

  Po: And so interesting because I became an acupuncturist and the foundation of acupuncture and Chinese medicine is Taoism. And here I have a dad who is a Taoist spiritual teacher. And so I was infused by your teachings around Taoism, Yin and Yang. And you're the reason why I've been able to really create more balance between Yin and Yang. And it's been such a life-changing philosophy for me. Is there anything that you want to share about Taoism that you think would be?

  Ba: Yeah, just so many, so much. Yeah, I know. Yeah, that's the source of all life, all existence. And that's the root of all that exists. And that's the only thing that's important. Nothing else is as important. Everything else is material things. But Taoism is a spiritual entity which gives birth to matter and then joined matter into his own life. So that becomes one.

  Po: Is it kind of like when you speak of that, it's kind of like the divine energy. God, universe, it's like the same kind of...

  Ba: See, from the religious point of view, it's not God, divine. As I said, for the Chinese terms, it's just Tao, which even goes deeper than divinity. Because it goes into the so-called void or nothingness. Well, in the Western religions, they were taught about the nothingness. It's being, it's not non-being. So this is the non-being, the void is the bottom line, it's the source of all things.

  And of course, that is a real divinity, if you call what's divine. And so there's nothing so simple and so all-inclusive. There's nothing that's beside it, because it penetrates, it permeates everything that exists, which he gave birth to. So everything will go back to it to become integral, to enjoy the eternal life.

  Po: Well, why do you call it he when you emphasize a lot about yin, which is more the feminine energy?

  Ba: See, that's what the material side is, the yin and yang. That's matter, matter is the material. There's feminine and masculine, but that's our spiritual concern. There's no masculine. So instead of saying it, it's nothing. Well, it's a matter of habit.

  Po: Yeah, it doesn't matter. You can call it whatever.

  Ba: Yeah, you could say she, you could say he, you could say it, doesn't matter.

  Ba: But of course, if you want to say it's that's more feminine, nothing is void. It's the prototype of yin. Right, feminine. Yeah, so we call that yin. And actually Lao Tzu calls the mother, Tao is the mother, and she has a son, which is yang, which is yang. Which is being, non-being, being non-being is mother, being is son.

  Po: Right, the void is the yin and then the...

  Ba: Yeah, so actually Lao Tzu speaks in terms of feminine and masculine a lot. But just in our ordinary lady language, we don't really, actually we don't mind what we call it.

  It's just a matter of habit. Right. Yeah, nobody really cares for what you call it. Yeah. But we see what it calls it, Tao is not just he or she or what.

  Po: Yeah. Tao. Okay, I just wanted to make sure because I didn't think it really mattered, but just checking. So I know people were curious about your journey from priesthood to a Taoist teacher. I feel like...

  Ba: See, there's a discontinuity while there's a continuity. So that's a set of paradox. This continued from Christianity to Taoism. This continued as a new start. But actually there's a continuity between the two because both are spiritual. Yeah.

  It's spiritual, so in me that's the same thing. There's two names. Right. Yeah.

  Right. However, as far as religion is concerned, there's just some difference. The Catholic or the Protestant religion and Taoist, it's not a religion at all. It's a philosophy. Yeah, it's just a philosophy. Or just a...

  Po: A way of living, way of being.

  Ba: Right. That's over the above religion and inside religion. So no matter how you call it, that's something not the same as religion. Yeah. But not far apart from religion. Right.

  Po: Because the Tao is part of everything. Yeah. Is that why? Yes. So I think it's interesting and we're going to wrap up soon, but I think it's interesting as an adult now looking back as a child and ever, you never brought up Christianity, you never brought up God, you never brought up Catholicism, you never brought the Bible. Like you never had conversations in the family about it at all. Right.

  Ever. You left it there. Right.

  You left it behind. Yeah. Right. But in a way though, because like you said, there is a connection of thread between all, which is you.

  Yeah. But like you would have these conversations with me in the wandering mat, we would have deep conversations. I was like 13 years old when I started having these very deep spiritual conversations with you, when you would teach me about the laws of energy and like all these things that you were learning or had known already. And so in a way, even though you never brought me to church or talked to me about religion or the Bible, I feel like I had my own version of church. It was more casual, but like we would have, I had these deep lessons.

  Yeah. And I'm really grateful for it because I feel like it leads such a foundation for me, a spiritual foundation for me. And then like I'm getting these teachings from you, you know, on the laundry mat side. And then on the martial arts side, I'm observing Shifu doing Qigong and Tai Chi. And I saw one time, you know, one of his students, their eyes were closed doing Qigong and he used his hands to like push towards them, but he didn't touch them. And they stumbled back because his chi was so strong that it moved them. So it was interesting upbringing to receive teachings for you and then observe energy and motion in the martial arts studio and then be raised with like the Chinese medicine and Chinese herbs. And then mama's just there running things because she's just the boss lady, right?

  Po: She's just running things. But yeah, so I feel very grateful for the upbringing I had.

  Po: I mean, obviously we had issues in the family, right? You're an amazing dad, but you also had a hard time being a dad, I feel like in some ways too, you know, like culturally, it's very different raising a kid in China than it is in the States.

  And also you didn't even plan on being a dad. So I think just like there was a lot of things that were disconnected too. So I received so much from you in terms of spiritual teachings and you being there for me in a lot of ways. But then also, you know, we had issues too, you know, that we've talked about, I've talked to you about, we've had many conversations about that kind of stuff. But, you know, I wouldn't change anything because this is my life, you know, I chose this life, I chose this body, I chose you as my dad, I chose mama as my mama. So I'm grateful for all of it because I feel like my foundation is solid because of all of that. Is there any last words that you want to share before you go? No.

  Ba: I just say everything is the same. Everything is not the same. I think that this paradox, the call is what Tao is because Tao is paradoxical, which is not contradictory, by the way. And that's why everything is paradoxical. And this is very important because we are caught in the middle. So we would like it as a conflict. However, there's a way out because it's paradoxical.

  Po: Can you say more? I don't think people might not understand.

  Ba: Everything is the same. Everything is different. So same and different at the same time. It's like in the two aspects. They're all one, but they're all two. They are all different, but they are all same. So this is what Tao is. It's hard to grasp because this is not...

  Po: It's more abstract.

  Ba: It's not just abstract. This agrees with logic. See, this is again logic. It's this. Black or white. It cannot be both ways. But this is both ways. The same way, both ways, a different way. So this is what Tao is. And this is not in religion.

  Po: How do you think that in practical terms, like a regular person who's not super into philosophy or doesn't connect with the abstract as much, is there a way that they connect? What would one teaching a simple, practical way that they can integrate Taoism into their way?

  Ba: Wherever you are, whatever situation you are in, whether it's difficult or easy, good or bad, it's always the alternative, which is the opposite. So don't be frustrated. Just give up hope because there's always hope. So when you are down, up, the up is waiting for you. You'll be there. When you're up, don't be too happy. You'll be down.

  Po: So that's not being too happy, but don't get attacked.

  Ba: Don't get the solution. Okay, there'll be forever like this. Nothing will be forever. It's always goes to the other side. And this is very important for people to deal with their daily situations and problems, especially because then there's always a way out. There's always a solution. But then when everything is good, don't be too happy and just lose yourself there. Something will go wrong. So it's good or bad, wrong or right. They come together at one point, but they go separate ways, but they always shift their...

  Po: That's why basically, because it helps with people, because people a lot of times are in suffering because they get attached to the good or the bad and forget that it's always changing and moving, ebb and flow.

  Ba: So actually it's a constant change. It's not a word for it. It's here, it's going to be there. There, it will come back. It will be somewhere else.

  Po: So basically this is what you taught me for many years, because I would have so many issues because I would be so attached to a situation or a feeling or whatever. And so this essentially what you're saying ultimately is surrender.

  Ba: Yes, right. So render and be invasive so you can hold everything. Everything, absolutely everything, whatever comes, okay, fine, whatever comes, fine. And then it will be fine. Right.

  Po: And that's what you said to me all the time. I remember calling you when I'd be crying and so upset and you would always say, just embrace it and it's okay. And that would always help me to just drop into the feeling that I was in and like not try to push that feeling away, just like let myself embrace that moment. And by embracing it, it softens. It lets go.

  Ba: And it resolves eventually.

  Po: And I would open up to more love and connection.

  Ba: But then everything will resolve. Don't be too happy about it. Something will be right. You'll come back. There's always going to be something. Yes, so up and down, up and down. That's what life's about.

  Po: Yeah, I think a lot of times people feel like they forget that. Right.

  Ba: It's just go one way and not the other way. Life is just two ways. The two way and they two way together. And they don't, never the wrong way, the real wrong way, never the real right way. Of course, the two way is the right way. Only one way is the wrong way. I just want this and nothing else. That's the wrong way. This, the opposite, fine. It's fine because they turn around.

  Po: Basically, basically don't get attached to any one thing. Be willing to be fluid and flexible and move with the energy.

  Ba: Yes, that's what we call being natural. That's what Lao Tzu teaches about being natural, spontaneous. Because of this bipolarity. That's what Yin Yang is actually. They go both ways. They are one, but they are opposed to each other, but they are one. Yeah. Beautiful.

  Po: Thank you so much, Ba. I really appreciate it. I really love this conversation. I'm sure that my audience listening are going to really love this conversation too. Maybe we'll do another one next year when I visit next August. We'll see. But I love you so much. I appreciate you.

  Ba: And until next time. Yeah, same here. I love you so much. Yeah, I love you too.

  Po: Bye everybody. I hope you enjoyed. And if you did, feel free to share this episode with a friend, a loved one. Yeah, and share it on social media and tag me in the stories if you like. All right. Bye everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode or received insight from it, I want to hear about it in your words. Feedback powers the show.

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In this special episode, I invite my Ba to share his remarkable journey from his experience as a Jesuit priest to leaving the religion to become a Taoist teacher.

Born in 1931, Ba’s early life was shaped by his mother's devout Catholicism and his admiration for Jesuit priests, leading him to leave China to join the Jesuits in the Philippines.

He shares how after moving to the U.S. to study anthropology, he became disillusioned with the Western-centric approach of the Catholic Church, prompting him to leave the priesthood.

We explore his post-priesthood journey, which took him through various jobs, including running a laundromat where he engaged in deep spiritual conversations, and his profound discovery of Taoism during the New Age movement of the 1980s. 

Ba shares how his interest in Taoism allowed him to find continuity with his previous spiritual life and how the core principles of Yin and Yang, divine energy, and interconnectedness have become central to his practice.

You don’t want to miss his unique perspective on spiritual evolution and his practical advice for integrating Taoism into daily life, join us for this one. 

We dive into: 

- Ba shares his early life and the strong influence of his mother’s Catholic faith, leading him to join the Jesuits at 18 

- His decision to leave the priesthood after moving to the U.S. and his adjustment to secular life 

- His post-priesthood jobs, including working as a mechanic, teacher, and salesperson, and the spiritual conversations he had at the laundromat 

- Discovering Taoism during the New Age movement of the 1980s and how it resonated with his previous spiritual life 

- Ba’s insights into Taoism’s core principles and his advice on integrating these teachings into everyday life 

- And more

Learn more about my Soul Renewal Retreat: https://www.taoofpo.com/soul-renewal-retreat

Get on my email list: https://www.taoofpo.com/newsletter

Connect with me and let’s go deeper: 

Website: https://www.pohongyu.com 

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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pohongyu/

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